Noah Kagan02 June 2022

Bonus Episode: How To Build Career Momentum with Noah Kagan

6Frameworks

15Insights

Episode overview

Ali Abdaal presents a 2020 interview with entrepreneur Noah Kagan about career momentum, business building, and the lessons Kagan drew from being fired by Facebook. They argue that young people should experiment widely, take risks while the downside is limited, and build durable skills, relationships, and audiences. The conversation also explores recovering confidence after setbacks, choosing work that feels meaningful, and matching objective, progress, or system-based goals to the situation. Both speakers emphasize consistent action over waiting for permission or obsessing over short-term metrics.

Key ideas

Early in a career, run many low-downside experiments because failed projects still build skills and clarify interests.
Long-term consistency compounds: Noah's “10-year rule” is to choose worthwhile work that can be sustained for a decade.
After a major setback, rebuild confidence through controllable actions, exercise, helping one person, and asking your network for support.
Build relationships and an owned audience early through blogs, newsletters, events, podcasts, or videos.
Use discomfort as a compass: asking for a discount, publishing work, performing publicly, or accepting unfamiliar responsibility can accelerate growth.
Define success personally and favor work you would continue even without immediate payment or impressive metrics.
Choose among objective, progress, and system goals based on what genuinely matters; arbitrary outcome goals can damage motivation.
Start before you feel ready, publish consistently, and improve through repetition instead of waiting for permission or perfect equipment.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Peak Performance5 steps

GABY Morning Routine

Start every day with Gratitude, Exercise, Breakfast and You

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Mindset6 steps

Rock-Bottom Recovery Ladder

Climb out of a low point by stacking small controllable wins

Read →

Mindset4 steps

The 10-Year Rule

Pick one thing and work at it for a decade to reach any level of success

Read →

Self-Mastery6 steps

The Coffee Challenge

Ask a cashier for 10% off to train your asking muscle

Read →

Productivity5 steps

Three Systems of Goal-Setting

Match each goal to an objective, progress or system frame

Read →

Influence6 steps

Value-First Free Work Outreach

Win access to people you admire by delivering value before asking

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 18

Ali AbdaalMentionsthe ongoing podcast where every week I get the chance to sit down with inspiring authors, entrepreneurs, creators, and other inspiring people.
“hey friends welcome back to deep dive if you're new here my name is ali”
▶ Watch at ~0:00approx.
Noah KaganMentionshe started out as employee number 30 at facebook before getting fired by mark zuckerberg
“this is actually an interview that i did with my friend noah kagan”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Mark ZuckerbergMentionshe started out as employee number 30 at facebook before getting fired by mark zuckerberg
“before getting fired by mark zuckerberg”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Noah KaganMentionshe started out as employee number 30 at facebook before getting fired by mark zuckerberg
“he was then employee number four at mint”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Mark ZuckerbergMentionshe started out as employee number 30 at facebook before getting fired by mark zuckerberg
“i think one of the things that people don't appreciate enough about mark is that he's had to make good decisions”
▶ Watch at ~5:30approx.
Ali AbdaalMentionsthe ongoing podcast where every week I get the chance to sit down with inspiring authors, entrepreneurs, creators, and other inspiring people.
“it's so obvious that you love making youtube videos”
▶ Watch at ~6:30approx.
Matt CohlerMentionsmatt kohler who's now a billionaire and cere fired me at this coffee shop in palo alto
“matt kohler who's now a billionaire and cere fired me at this coffee shop in palo alto”
▶ Watch at ~11:30approx.
Ramit SethiMentionsramit sethi or tim ferriss guy kawasaki a lot of these guys i just helped promote them and connect with them really early on
“ramit sethi or tim ferriss guy kawasaki a lot of these guys i just helped promote them”
▶ Watch at ~16:00approx.
Max LevchinMentionsi just asked people like guy kawasaki and max levchin from paypal
“i just asked people like guy kawasaki and max levchin from paypal”
▶ Watch at ~16:00approx.
Tim FerrissMentionsramit sethi or tim ferriss guy kawasaki a lot of these guys i just helped promote them and connect with them really early on
“ramit sethi or tim ferriss guy kawasaki a lot of these guys i just helped promote them”
▶ Watch at ~16:00approx.
Guy KawasakiMentionsi just asked people like guy kawasaki and max levchin from paypal
“i just asked people like guy kawasaki and max levchin from paypal”
▶ Watch at ~16:00approx.
Tony RobbinsCoinedi know tony robbins says unleash the power within
“i know tony robbins says unleash the power within”
▶ Watch at ~18:30approx.
Rolf PottsMentionsi've been listening to rolf potts's podcaster deviates
“i've been listening to rolf potts's podcaster deviates”
▶ Watch at ~26:30approx.
Donald MillerCoinedyeah by donald miller
“yeah by donald miller”
▶ Watch at ~27:30approx.
Andrew WarnerMentionsandrew warner is actually he's listening and he runs mixergy he is the reason appsumo actually got started
“andrew warner is actually he's listening and he runs mixergy he is the reason appsumo actually got started”
▶ Watch at ~28:30approx.
Adam GilbertMentionsmy friend adam gilbert from mybodytutor.com
“my friend adam gilbert from mybodytutor.com”
▶ Watch at ~31:00approx.
Will SmithMentionsthey challenged will smith to bungie jump off a helicopter and he accepted their challenge
“they challenged will smith to bungie jump off a helicopter and he accepted their challenge”
▶ Watch at ~32:00approx.
Gary VaynerchukCoinedas people like gary vaynerchuk would say it's all about patience in the long term
“as people like gary vaynerchuk would say it's all about patience in the long term”
▶ Watch at ~57:00approx.

Resources · 41

Deep Dive with Ali AbdaalCoinedpodcast · Ali Abdaal
“hey friends welcome back to deep dive”
▶ Watch at ~0:00approx.
MintMentionscompany
“he was then employee number four at mint”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
FacebookMentionscompany · Mark Zuckerberg and co-founders
“he started out as employee number 30 at facebook”
▶ Watch at ~0:30approx.
Sumo GroupMentionscompany · Noah Kagan
“he's now the ceo of the sumo group of apps which is itself an eight-figure business”
▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
UC BerkeleyMentionsplace
“when i graduated college i went to uc berkeley”
▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
CollegeUp.orgCoinedwebsite · Noah Kagan
“i started a craigslist for college students called collegeup.org”
▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
HFG ConsultingCoinedcompany · Noah Kagan
“i started a consulting business called hfg consulting”
▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
RentACoder.comUseswebsite
“then i started freelancing my services out on rentacode.com”
▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
W3SchoolsUseswebsite
“i taught myself how to code by following tutorials on w3schools”
▶ Watch at ~3:00approx.
Chess.comUseswebsite
“i'm into chess so you can play me chess.com”
▶ Watch at ~9:00approx.
Chess.comUseswebsite
“last time i had a session on chess.com was i think in 2015”
▶ Watch at ~9:00approx.
FacebookUsescompany · Mark Zuckerberg and co-founders
“all of my friends worked at facebook everyone knew i worked at facebook”
▶ Watch at ~12:00approx.
LinkedInRecommendswebsite
“look on linkedin or look at your schoolmates or look at your teachers or look at your parents”
▶ Watch at ~13:00approx.
SendFoxCoinedsoftware · Noah Kagan and Sumo Group
“send fox.com is a free newsletter that we created”
▶ Watch at ~14:30approx.
OkDorkCoinedwebsite · Noah Kagan
“it's when i started blogging on okdor.com”
▶ Watch at ~15:00approx.
Entrepreneur27.orgCoinedevent · Noah Kagan
“i did this thing called entrepreneur27.org where i just started putting on events”
▶ Watch at ~15:30approx.
Community NextCoinedevent · Noah Kagan
“then i did a thing called communitynext.com”
▶ Watch at ~16:00approx.
StridesUsessoftware
“i actually use strides app it's a free app”
▶ Watch at ~22:30approx.
PushFitUsessoftware
“i use push fit okay it's a free app and i just do a bunch of push-ups”
▶ Watch at ~23:00approx.
DeviateUsespodcast · Rolf Potts
“i've been listening to rolf potts's podcaster deviates”
▶ Watch at ~26:30approx.
LululemonRecommendscompany
“i like wearing like a little lemon stuff because you can wear it for a lot of days without smelling”
▶ Watch at ~27:00approx.
r/onebagRecommendswebsite
“one of my favorite subreddits is it's called one bag”
▶ Watch at ~27:00approx.
A Million Miles in a Thousand YearsRecommendsbook · Donald Miller
“that book changed my life and we both talked about how we cried from it it's one of my favorite books all time”
▶ Watch at ~27:30approx.
A Million Miles in a Thousand YearsCoinedbook · Donald Miller
“i think it's a million miles in a thousand years yeah yeah by donald miller”
▶ Watch at ~27:30approx.
MixergyMentionspodcast · Andrew Warner
“andrew warner is actually he's listening and he runs mixergy”
▶ Watch at ~28:30approx.
AppSumoMentionscompany · Noah Kagan
“he is the reason appsumo actually got started”
▶ Watch at ~28:30approx.
MyBodyTutorMentionscompany · Adam Gilbert
“my friend adam gilbert from mybodytutor.com”
▶ Watch at ~31:00approx.
Yes TheoryRecommendscompany
“it's a life-changing youtube channel basically it's these three guys that travel around the world”
▶ Watch at ~32:00approx.
Yes TheoryMentionscompany
“their whole mantra is seek discomfort”
▶ Watch at ~32:00approx.
TeachableMentionscompany
“i just teachable.com they sold and i got some money”
▶ Watch at ~36:00approx.
SendFoxRecommendssoftware · Noah Kagan and Sumo Group
“go to sendfox.com it's one of the sites we have start a weekly newsletter”
▶ Watch at ~36:30approx.
Cambridge UniversityMentionsplace
“having gone to cambridge university which has some kudos among students around the world”
▶ Watch at ~37:00approx.
AppSumoCoinedcompany · Noah Kagan
“running a company that's we're an eight-figure business at appsumo.com”
▶ Watch at ~39:30approx.
HostGatorUsescompany
“i host on hostgator with a blog”
▶ Watch at ~43:00approx.
WordPress.orgUsessoftware
“with a blog i use wordpress.org”
▶ Watch at ~43:00approx.
YouTube StudioUsessoftware · YouTube
“i'd be refreshing the youtube studio or the youtube app like 18 times a day”
▶ Watch at ~46:30approx.
TitanicMentionsfilm · James Cameron
“so he did titanic made a bunch of cash”
▶ Watch at ~47:30approx.
The Basketball DiariesMentionsfilm · Scott Kalvert
“then he does like some indie film like basketball diaries because it's sexy”
▶ Watch at ~47:30approx.
BasecampMentionscompany · Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson
“the whole base camp spiel seems to be that we don't really like setting goals”
▶ Watch at ~51:00approx.
Y Combinator PodcastMentionspodcast · Y Combinator
“he was on the y combinator podcast for some reason and they were interviewing him”
▶ Watch at ~56:30approx.
Teaching as a Subversive ActivityRecommendsbook · Neil Postman and Charles Weingartner
“one of my favorite books about this is called teaching as a subversive activity”
▶ Watch at ~58:00approx.

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Hot Take· 3

Hot Take17:00

It's easier to garden than to hunt

Kagan reframes audience-building as gardening rather than hunting. A garden takes time and requires planting seeds, but then reliably produces vegetables right there at home. Hunting means going out hoping to find something and asking for things right away, with no guarantee. The point: start planting seeds now — a blog, a body of work — so you can harvest relationships and opportunities later instead of scrambling for them.

Gardening is slow but reliable; hunting is uncertain
Plant seeds now to harvest opportunities later
A long-standing blog or body of work compounds
An existing audience makes everything else easier

“it's much easier to garden than to hunt”
Noah Kagan · 17:00

#audience#patience#content#mental-model

Hot Take48:00

Monetizing a passion sharpens it — the muffin test

Abdaal defends monetizing passions: not that every passion must be monetized, but that charging money adds a dimension of fun and focus. He learned close-up magic alone in front of a webcam, but performing it live — volunteering at a hospice, then a scary paid restaurant gig — changed the game. Selling your muffins, not just baking them, forces you to improve the things that actually matter to an audience.

You needn't monetize every passion, but it can help
Charging money adds fun and forces focus
Performing live exposed his real weaknesses
Selling the output sharpens what matters to others

“if you can monetize somehow the things that you're doing anyway then life just becomes more interesting”
Ali Abdaal · 48:30

#passion#monetization#skill#creators

Hot Take57:30

No apologies, no permission

Kagan's closing philosophy: we're trained by parents and school to seek permission and to apologise for pursuing what we want. But the internet has no rules — no one stops you from uploading to YouTube or starting a newsletter. He argues an entrepreneur can never be satisfied, because dissatisfaction is what drives you to solve problems and create; so follow your heart, without apologising and without waiting for permission.

We're conditioned to seek permission and apologise
The internet has no gatekeepers — just start
Entrepreneurs are driven by dissatisfaction
Follow your heart with no apologies and no permission

“it's no apologies without permission”
Noah Kagan · 58:00

#permission#autonomy#entrepreneurship#mindset

Explainer· 1

Explainer05:30

What made Zuckerberg exceptional: detail plus a huge vision

Kagan credits Zuckerberg with two things. First, unparalleled attention to detail — he would notice a hyperlinked period on a help page and get it fixed. Second, and more overlooked, a vision so big and appealing that people dedicated their lives to it: in 2005, having just rejected a billion-dollar Yahoo offer, he declared Facebook would connect every person in the world. Kagan says a compelling, oversized vision is what most struggling founders lack.

Zuckerberg's attention to detail was unparalleled
He rejected a billion-dollar Yahoo offer at 21-22
In 2005 he vowed to connect every person on earth
A big, appealing vision makes people dedicate their lives

“he had a vision that was so appealing and so big that i dedicated my life to working there”
Noah Kagan · 06:00

#leadership#vision#zuckerberg#facebook

Story· 4

Story09:30

Getting fired from Facebook by Zuckerberg's team

As employee number 30 at Facebook, Kagan was fired at a Palo Alto coffee shop by Matt Kohler and another colleague. His work phone was taken, so he bought a new one and a pack of cigarettes, packed up the house he shared with Facebook staff and moved to a friend's couch. He believes the firing was justified and that it created a chip on his shoulder that drove his later success.

He was employee number 30, fired at a coffee shop
His Facebook phone was confiscated on the spot
He agrees the firing was the right call
The setback created a productive chip on his shoulder

“i think chips on shoulder create successful people”
Noah Kagan · 09:30

“i think that they were right to fire me i think if i was mark and that team i would have fired me too”
Noah Kagan · 10:00

#facebook#fired#setback#resilience

Story08:30

The ice cream maker who stopped eating ice cream

At a New York dinner party Kagan met an ice cream maker and asked how much ice cream she ate a day; she hadn't eaten any in two years. The lesson: turning something you love into your full-time work can strip away your enjoyment of it. His resolution is to find work you enjoy that makes money, but to protect separate hobbies purely for stimulation — like his chess.

Making a passion your job can kill your love for it
Find enjoyable work that also makes money
Keep hobbies protected purely for stimulation
Abdaal agrees full-time YouTube could lose its charm

“sometimes if you do something you love so much you don't even end up liking it”
Noah Kagan · 08:30

#passion#hobbies#burnout#work-life

Story18:30

Three years of his head fighting his heart

Kagan admits that for three years his head talked him out of the content work his heart loved, telling him he was 'just another talking influencer', not helpful, not enough — and worrying his high school friends would judge him. He argues this head-versus-heart fight is what keeps people from their calling, and that you only stop feeling behind when you follow your gut and revisit what you genuinely loved doing.

His head dismissed the content work his heart loved
Self-conscious fears (even about his 'pointy ears') held him back
The head-heart conflict blocks people from their calling
Following the heart is when you stop feeling behind

“that's our head kind of fighting our heart”
Noah Kagan · 19:30

#self-doubt#calling#authenticity#content

Story34:00

Directing a play taught Abdaal no one is really watching you

Abdaal shares his biggest growth experience: being asked to co-direct the Cambridge medical school pantomime despite zero theatre experience. Wracked with imposter syndrome, he realised everyone else was too worried about their own lines to judge him — no one even knew he was inexperienced. That liberating gotcha moment pushed him to branch his YouTube channel beyond medicine into whatever he enjoyed.

He co-directed a play with no theatre experience
Imposter syndrome dominated every rehearsal
Everyone was too worried about themselves to judge him
The realisation freed him to broaden his content

“everyone is just worried about themselves ... they're not looking at me and thinking that guy's got no experience”
Ali Abdaal · 34:30

#imposter-syndrome#comfort-zone#growth#youtube

Takeaway· 7

Takeaway02:00

Take as many risks as you can while you're young

Kagan argues the best time to start businesses is when you have time and little to lose. In college he launched a discount card business, a consulting firm and a Craigslist for students — most failed, but the risk-taking capacity itself fades with age. As you get older you get boring, safe and scared of losing, so bold action is cheapest early.

Young people have time and minimal downside
Most of his early ventures failed but taught him
Risk tolerance shrinks as you age and acquire things to lose
When there's less to lose, go out and be bold

“take a lot of risks as many risks as you can because you get older we get boring and we get safe and we get…”
Noah Kagan · 02:30

#risk#youth#entrepreneurship#college

Takeaway06:30

Do now the work you'd do if you already had a million

Kagan's test for finding the right work: figure out what you'd do if you had a million dollars in the bank and didn't have to work — then do that now, because doing it is what earns the million. Abdaal ties it to his lottery question for doctors: half say they'd leave medicine, half would stay but go part-time. The follow-up — why not go part-time today — reveals the bills-and-mortgage trap that keeps people in unfulfilling work.

Identify the work you'd do even without needing money
Doing that work now is what produces the money
Abdaal asks people if they'd still work after winning the lottery
Bills and mortgages trap people in work they'd otherwise quit

“find the thing that you do if you have a million dollars in the bank and guess what by doing that you'll actually get the…”
Noah Kagan · 07:00

#purpose#work#financial-freedom#fulfilment

Takeaway20:00

Use jealousy as a compass, not a verdict on being behind

For anyone who feels behind, Kagan reframes jealousy as useful data. Jealousy is a compass pointing to what you either want or don't want in life — he notes a friend making far more millions, even though Kagan still drives a Miata and barely uses money. Rather than comparing yourself to peers, treat the feeling as clarity about where you actually want to be, then, like using Google Maps, decide the destination first and the route becomes easy.

Feeling behind is really a comparison to peers
Jealousy signals what you want or don't want
Decide the destination before worrying about the route
Set a short concrete target, e.g. where to be by month end

“jealousy is a compass of something that you either want or don't want in life”
Noah Kagan · 20:30

#comparison#jealousy#clarity#goals

Takeaway35:30

We're only proud of the things we had to work for

Reflecting on pride, Kagan notes we're proud of things because we genuinely wanted them and because they were hard. When Teachable sold and he suddenly had money he didn't have to work for, he felt no real pride in it. Pride and growth both come from doing the uncomfortable, effortful things — getting on stage, doing the coffee challenge — not from easy wins or passive outcomes.

Pride comes from wanting something and working for it
Unearned windfalls don't produce real pride
Growth happens at the edge of discomfort
Use discomfort as a compass toward growth

“we're proud of the things we actually had to work for which is a little counter-intuitive”
Noah Kagan · 36:00

#pride#growth#discomfort#effort

Takeaway39:00

In high school, be deliberate about who you surround yourself with

Kagan's advice to students: treat life like a buffet and try many things, but be intentional about your peer group. Growing up in San Jose, his classmates' norm was selling companies and becoming VPs at public companies, which set his own expectations high. He deliberately spent more time with the friends heading into tech — now a senior Stripe developer, an early Lyft employee — and less with those who were only 'cool in high school'.

Try many things — treat life like a buffet
Your peer group sets your expectations of normal
He chose friends aligned with his tech ambitions
Every profession is valid, but pick peers who match your goals

“think about who you're surrounding yourself with”
Noah Kagan · 39:30

#environment#peers#ambition#high-school

Takeaway43:30

Commit to publishing weekly for a year before judging results

Kagan's rule for building an audience: pick a medium that fits your style — words, audio, photos, video — and commit to publishing at least once a week for a full year before you allow yourself to stop or evaluate. He compares quitting early to his mom's watermelon diet: unsustainable and pointless. Abdaal echoes it, telling people who've made three videos to ask again after 50, because the learning comes from volume.

Pick the medium that fits your natural style
Publish weekly for a full year before judging
Sustainability matters more than intensity
Learning comes from churning out volume, not early feedback

“you have to do it at least once a week for a year and you can't even think about stopping until after a year”
Noah Kagan · 43:30

#consistency#content#audience#habits

Takeaway46:30

Detach from vanity metrics and focus on the process

Abdaal describes obsessively refreshing YouTube stats early on — celebrating going from 70 to 71 subscribers — until he realised around a couple thousand subscribers that watching metrics is pointless. The shift was to focus on the process of shipping two videos a week and ignore the views. Kagan adds his 'sex cache theory': creators must make the audience-pulling videos and also the experimental, creative ones that pay off long-term.

Early obsession with subscriber counts is a trap
Focus on the process of shipping consistently
Momentum begets momentum once the flywheel turns
The 'sex cache theory': balance crowd-pleasers with experimental work

“momentum begets momentum”
Ali Abdaal · 46:00

“you have to do the videos that bring in the audience ... and then you also have to do the experimental stuff”
Noah Kagan · 47:30

#metrics#process#creators#youtube

Key ideas

Frameworks in this episode

GABY Morning Routine

Rock-Bottom Recovery Ladder

The 10-Year Rule

The Coffee Challenge

Three Systems of Goal-Setting

Value-First Free Work Outreach

People & resources mentioned

People · 18

Resources · 41

Insights & moments

◆Hot Take· 3

It's easier to garden than to hunt

Monetizing a passion sharpens it — the muffin test

No apologies, no permission

✶Explainer· 1

What made Zuckerberg exceptional: detail plus a huge vision

❝Story· 4

Getting fired from Facebook by Zuckerberg's team

The ice cream maker who stopped eating ice cream

Three years of his head fighting his heart

Directing a play taught Abdaal no one is really watching you

▲Takeaway· 7

Take as many risks as you can while you're young

Do now the work you'd do if you already had a million

Use jealousy as a compass, not a verdict on being behind

We're only proud of the things we had to work for

In high school, be deliberate about who you surround yourself with

Commit to publishing weekly for a year before judging results

Detach from vanity metrics and focus on the process

Hot Take· 3

Explainer· 1

Story· 4

Takeaway· 7