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Dr Julie Smith19 October 2023

Leading Psychologist: How To Finally Overcome Stress & Anxiety - Dr Julie Smith

7Frameworks
13Insights

Episode overview

Ali Abdaal and clinical psychologist Dr Julie Smith examine stress, anxiety, overthinking, burnout, and the role of emotions. Smith explains mindfulness as deliberate attention training, shows how distancing language can loosen attachment to distressing thoughts, and distinguishes rumination about the past from worry about the future. They also discuss sustainable work, values check-ins, distress-tolerance skills, and how to support someone through difficulty with connection rather than immediate problem-solving.

Key ideas

  • Mindfulness is deliberate practice in noticing where attention has gone and repeatedly returning it to the present.
  • Emotions contain useful information but should be held lightly as one possible interpretation rather than unquestioned fact.
  • Rumination repeatedly revisits the past and can maintain depression, while future-focused catastrophizing tends to amplify anxiety.
  • Distancing phrases such as “I’m noticing the thought that” help create separation from thoughts and reduce their control over behavior.
  • Thought biases such as personalization and mental filtering become easier to interrupt when they are noticed and labeled.
  • Anxiety need not be eliminated; physiological sighing, reframing, and acceptance can lower it enough to act in line with personal values.
  • Burnout can reflect unsustainable effort, inadequate replenishment, or misalignment between daily behavior and important values.
  • Supporting someone in distress often means offering steady connection, validation, and practical presence rather than trying to solve their feelings.

Transcript available · source text is retained privately and is not published

Frameworks in this episode

Self-Mastery5 steps

Byron Katie's Four Questions (The Work)

Interrogate a limiting belief with four questions and a turnaround

Read →
Mindset5 steps

Mindfulness as Attention Training

Treat mindfulness as gym for the mind, not indulgent rest

Read →
Mindset4 steps

Taking Thoughts to Court (Thought Challenging)

Put a distressing belief on trial and weigh the real evidence

Read →
Productivity5 steps

The Ideal Week Calendar

Design an ideal week to aim at, then rebalance toward it

Read →
Productivity5 steps

The Three Types of Burnout

Diagnose which burnout you have before choosing the fix

Read →
Mindset5 steps

Thought Defusion (Distancing Language)

Hold a thought at arm's length so it stops running the show

Read →
Self-Mastery5 steps

Values Check-In

Diagnose misalignment by scoring what matters against how you're living

Read →

People & resources mentioned

Attributed to the moment in the episode. Timestamps are approximate.

People · 6

  • Dr Julie SmithMentionsDr Julie Smith who is a clinical psychologist and the author of the bestselling book why has nobody told me this before

    “we are speaking for the second time to Dr Julie Smith who is a clinical psychologist”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:00approx.
  • Ali AbdaalUsesthe ongoing podcast where every week I get the chance to sit down with inspiring authors, entrepreneurs, creators, and other inspiring people.

    “we've been using kajabi to host all of our online courses since the start of 2023”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
  • Warren BuffettRecommendsthe thing that Warren Buffett and basically everyone who sensible in the space recommends

    “the thing that Warren Buffett and basically everyone who's sensible in the space recommends which is to invest in Broad stock market index funds”

    ▶ Watch at ~3:30approx.
  • Julian HearnCoinedwe have the founder of huel Julian Hearn who was on the very first season of the podcast

    “since interviewing the founder Julian Hearn on this podcast in season 1 and hearing the origin story of hu”

    ▶ Watch at ~5:00approx.
  • Jim CarreyMentionsmentioned

    “you can remember the Jim Carrey movie The Mask”

    ▶ Watch at ~47:30approx.
  • Byron KatieMentionsmentioned

    “have you come across the work by Byron Katy”

    ▶ Watch at ~51:30approx.

Resources · 25

  • Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before?Coinedbook · Dr Julie Smith

    “the author of the bestselling book why has nobody told me this before”

    ▶ Watch at ~0:00approx.
  • Deep Dive with Ali AbdaalCoinedpodcast · Ali Abdaal

    “all of our Deep dive listeners”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:00approx.
  • KajabiUsessoftware · Kajabi

    “we started using kajabi earlier this year and as soon as we started using it we were like oh my God”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:30approx.
  • Part-Time YouTuber AcceleratorCoinedcourse · Ali Abdaal

    “the part-time YouTuber accelerator which gives you access to me and my team”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
  • Part-Time YouTuber FoundationsCoinedcourse · Ali Abdaal

    “from our $1 part-time YouTuber foundations to help people start off on their YouTube Journey”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:00approx.
  • Kajabi Hero LiveMentionsevent · Kajabi

    “people paid for the pretty expensive tickets to watch this keynote at the kab hero live event”

    ▶ Watch at ~2:30approx.
  • Trading 212Usessoftware · Trading 212

    “I personally use trading 212 to manage a portion of my portfolio”

    ▶ Watch at ~3:30approx.
  • AppleMentionscompany

    “that Pi might be like I don't know 20% Apple 20% Tesla”

    ▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
  • TeslaMentionscompany

    “that Pi might be like I don't know 20% Apple 20% Tesla”

    ▶ Watch at ~4:00approx.
  • HuelUsesproduct · Julian Hearn

    “I've been using hu since 2017 since my 5ifth year of medical school”

    ▶ Watch at ~5:00approx.
  • The Sunday TimesMentionsnewsletter

    “I imagined that moment that you see the book and you know the Sunday Times would just be momentous”

    ▶ Watch at ~8:30approx.
  • NHSMentionscompany

    “if you get your I don't know six or 12 allotted sessions of the NHS”

    ▶ Watch at ~12:00approx.
  • Feelings WheelUsestool

    “filled out this um feeling feeling wheel um and me and one of our team members were doing it”

    ▶ Watch at ~13:30approx.
  • Acceptance and Commitment TherapyMentionsother

    “something from acceptance and commitment therapy so act or ACT therapy”

    ▶ Watch at ~47:30approx.
  • The MaskMentionsfilm

    “you can remember the Jim Carrey movie The Mask”

    ▶ Watch at ~47:30approx.
  • Happy Place FestivalMentionsevent

    “I think it was a happy place festival”

    ▶ Watch at ~48:00approx.
  • The WorkCoinedtool · Byron Katie

    “have you come across the work by Byron Katy”

    ▶ Watch at ~51:30approx.
  • Cognitive Behavioral TherapyMentionsother

    “it's a sort of interesting um I say variation of it's kind of CBT in some ways”

    ▶ Watch at ~53:00approx.
  • Feel-Good ProductivityCoinedbook · Ali Abdaal

    “the book that I've been working on for the last 3 years is now available for order it is called Feelgood productivity”

    ▶ Watch at ~59:00approx.
  • AmazonMentionscompany · Jeff Bezos

    “it's available on Amazon and all other major retailers”

    ▶ Watch at ~59:00approx.
  • YouTubeUseswebsite · Google

    “I don't look at YouTube analytics anymore either”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:25:00approx.
  • Exeter UniversityMentionsplace

    “I went to EXA for my undergrad”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:30:30approx.
  • Dialectical Behavior TherapyMentionsother

    “in uh dialectical behavior therapy so DBT which is um a year-long therapy”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:33:00approx.
  • Google CalendarUsessoftware · Google

    “by mapping that out on like a Google Calendar that I call my ideal we calendar”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:41:30approx.
  • iTunes StoreMentionssoftware · Apple

    “do please leave us a review on the iTunes Store”

    ▶ Watch at ~1:54:00approx.

Spot an error or want something removed? Request a correction or removal.

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster1:02:30

Why 'good vibes only' backfires

Julie Smith rejects the 'positive vibes only' trend. Forcing yourself to never think a negative thought means denying your own brain, which is built to generate meaning and will naturally produce negative assessments. When a negative thought inevitably arrives, you then criticise yourself for being negative and spiral downward. Better to accept you're human and judge which thoughts are worth engaging.

  • Suppressing all negativity requires denying how your brain works
  • A well-functioning brain will produce negative ideas some of the time
  • Forced positivity leads to self-criticism when negativity slips through
  • Some negative thoughts are accurate and useful information
  • Wisdom is holding thoughts lightly and choosing which to spend time with

“in order to do that successfully you have to really deny your own human brain”

Dr Julie Smith · 1:02:30
#positive-thinking#myth#toxic-positivity

Hot Take· 1

Hot Take32:30

Do go to bed angry: no arguments after 10pm

Against the classic advice, Julie Smith sides with going to bed angry. In a high-emotion state neither partner can resolve anything, and words spoken then can cause more damage. Sleep brings the emotion down so you can talk with respect. Ali shares a friend's rule, no arguments after 10pm, which stopped 3am rows and transformed the relationship.

  • In peak emotion you can't resolve anything productively
  • Taking a break lets the nervous system return toward calm
  • Sleep often resets an intense feeling by morning
  • Arguing into the night leaves you both sleep-deprived and unresolved
  • A hard rule like 'nothing after 10pm' forces the pause

“if taking a break from each other or having a sleep is what is necessary to help bring that emotion down so that you can…”

Dr Julie Smith · 33:30

“after 10 p.m. you're not going to have any arguments... that just that one change made such an enormous difference to their relationship”

Ali Abdaal · 34:00
#relationships#conflict#sleep#boundaries

Explainer· 5

Explainer18:30

Feelings aren't facts, but don't dismiss them either

Ali frames a tension: one view says feelings are just stories the mind colours, so you can control them; the other says feelings carry valuable information. Julie Smith resolves it: the brain generates feelings as its best guess from limited data, so treat an emotion like any message, listen to it, but hold it lightly as one version of reality rather than the one truth.

  • The brain makes a best-guess assessment from your biology and environment
  • Early feelings can be the most valuable when you listen to them
  • Hold an emotion as valuable but not the whole truth
  • Blinkering yourself to one feeling as fact restricts you
  • You can go down a rabbit hole if painful thoughts are treated as the only reality

“we have to listen to our emotions as we would listen to any message and hold it lightly”

Dr Julie Smith · 20:30
#emotions#cognition#acceptance
Explainer23:00

Take an umbrella into the rain: engage discomfort, don't avoid it

Instead of grasping a difficult feeling or shoving it away, let it wash over you and it takes its natural course. Julie Smith's rain analogy: you could refuse to go out when it rains, but that closes off a valued life; better to go out with a coat and umbrella. Applied to social anxiety, you still enter the situation, but bring coping skills to ease the way through.

  • Don't grasp the feeling hard or push it away; let it pass
  • Fighting an unpleasant feeling often gives it more power
  • Avoiding every discomfort closes doors to a meaningful life
  • Bring 'coat and umbrella' skills so discomfort doesn't overwhelm you
  • Meaningful achievements almost always involve discomfort on the way

“when you stop fighting against it that takes some of the power out of it”

Dr Julie Smith · 23:00
#acceptance#anxiety#coping
Explainer37:00

Overthinking is really worry: rumination vs catastrophizing

Julie Smith reframes the buzzword 'overthinking' as worry, the mental washing machine that churns without resolution. Churning over the past is rumination, a key predictor of depression's maintenance and relapse. Churning over the future is catastrophizing, which fuels anxiety. Neither answers anything, and no amount of reassurance stops the 'what ifs'.

  • Overthinking is basically worry by another name
  • Rumination = churning the past, linked to depression
  • Worry/catastrophizing = churning the future, drives anxiety
  • Anxiety makes the thoughts demand even more attention
  • You'll always find another 'what if', so reassurance never lands

“rumination is a key predictor of the... maintenance of depression or the relapse of depression”

Dr Julie Smith · 38:00
#overthinking#worry#rumination#anxiety
Explainer1:05:00

Spot the thinking bias: personalizing, catastrophizing, mental filter

Julie Smith walks through common cognitive distortions, normal brain shortcuts, not pathologies. Personalizing makes a neutral event about you (an unreturned wave becomes 'she hates me'). Catastrophizing predicts the worst. The mental filter screens out the good, in depression especially, and fixates on the one negative. Simply labelling which bias is running lets you step out of the spiral.

  • These biases are human shortcuts, not faults in the system
  • Personalizing: making a neutral event about you, negatively
  • Mental filter: skimming past praise to fixate on the one criticism
  • Naming the bias in the moment is more powerful than it sounds
  • There are usually 10,000 other explanations for the triggering event

“you're looking for that one person that doesn't like you... you zoom in on that one thing that makes you feel worse”

Dr Julie Smith · 1:08:30

“that's the one and then I realized wait a minute like just skipped past like 18 oh my God this interview was incredible”

Ali Abdaal · 1:09:30
#cognitive distortions#CBT#self-awareness
Explainer1:10:30

Stress vs anxiety: same body, different story

We have one stress response, one fight-or-flight system, but how we conceptualise it depends on the words we use. Julie Smith's post-office queue example: feeling the pressure of competing demands is stress; fearing your boss will humiliate you for being late is anxiety, more threat-based. The physiology overlaps; the label reflects whether it's about meeting demands or facing a feared outcome.

  • There's one survival response underneath both terms
  • Stress leans toward 'which demands can I meet?'
  • Anxiety leans toward a feared, threat-based outcome
  • The words we use shape how we experience the sensation
  • The terms are used interchangeably online but differ in emphasis

“you might call that stress... you might call it anxiety if... your boss tends to humiliate people that turn up late”

Dr Julie Smith · 1:12:00
#stress#anxiety#definitions#physiology

Tool· 2

Tool13:30

The Feelings Wheel: naming emotions with more precision

Many people can only reach for 'happy, sad, angry', which flattens very different experiences into the same word. The feelings wheel packs in richer vocabulary, six core emotions at the centre expanding into nuanced labels, so you can find the word that actually fits. Giving granular words to feelings helps the brain understand and predict situations in finer detail.

  • Six core emotions at the centre: anger, disgust, sad, happy, surprise, fear
  • Outer rings add nuance, e.g. happy expands into optimistic, proud, inquisitive, fulfilled
  • A prompt word often resonates instantly even if you'd never have generated it
  • Social and gender expectations can push people to mislabel fear or anger
  • Naming feelings precisely is a genuine, trainable skill

“some people just don't have the vocab to give granularity to... they might have happy sad angry frustrated but they might not have the vocab…”

Dr Julie Smith · 15:00
#emotions#vocabulary#self-awareness#tool
Tool25:30

The physiological sigh: a breath to dial anxiety down fast

A discreet breathing technique Julie Smith uses seconds before going on live TV. You take a large inhale, add a second small inhale when your lungs feel full, then release a long, vigorous exhale, out-breath longer than in-breath. It slows the heart rate and clears carbon dioxide more efficiently by opening the lungs' air sacs, bringing anxiety down to a level where you can still perform.

  • Big inhale, then a second small inhale, then a long slow exhale
  • The out-breath should be longer than the in-breath
  • Slows heart rate and clears CO2 more efficiently
  • Nobody can see you doing it, but it makes a real difference
  • Goal is not zero anxiety but staying alert and in the zone

“you take a large in breath and then just when you feel like your lungs are full you take another small breath and then you…”

Dr Julie Smith · 25:30
#breathing#anxiety#performance#tool

Takeaway· 4

Takeaway28:00

You can't manage other people's emotions, so validate instead

Ali admits he feels responsible for making his partner not upset. Julie Smith explains that trying to control others' feelings makes relationships impossible, because emotions arise for reasons beyond you. Discomfort at someone's distress is actually a sign of care. When someone cries, the urge to make it stop leads to minimising; what they usually need is validation and connection, and the emotion settles naturally.

  • You can't control another person's emotions, and trying is exhausting
  • Feeling their distress is a sign of how much you care
  • Rushing to fix crying often minimises the person's feelings
  • What people need is validation: 'this is painful, I've got your back'
  • Held and validated, the emotion comes down on its own

“what they need to do is feel validated... this is painful... I've got your back I'm here for you and we'll walk through this together…”

Dr Julie Smith · 30:00
#relationships#validation#emotions#empathy
Takeaway1:20:30

You never win the game, the winning is in playing

Ali says Julie has 'won the game' with a bestselling book; she pushes back, you never feel you've arrived, you're always still playing. She keeps self-worth detached from metrics: her husband tracks the analytics so she doesn't have to, and if the account vanished, 'I'm still me'. Having children and a profession to return to gave her perspective that the numbers mean almost nothing.

  • Hitting a milestone thrills for seconds, then it's past
  • Pegging self-worth to metrics means losing badly when they dip
  • Julie deliberately avoids her own analytics and view counts
  • Identity anchored in family and craft survives the account disappearing
  • The winning is in playing, not in a final score

“you never feel like you arrive you never feel like you've won the game you just constantly feel like you're playing the game”

Dr Julie Smith · 1:20:30

“if I accidentally delete the account I'm still me nothing's really different”

Dr Julie Smith · 1:24:00
#self-worth#creator-life#identity#success
Takeaway1:43:30

Treat long work stretches like a marathon: protect the basics

For sustained study or work, Julie Smith says the obvious answer, take breaks, is the right one. Treat it as a marathon and protect the fundamentals: sleep, good food, movement, and social contact. These are the first things people cut when struggling, yet they most determine your stamina. Sleep's payoff is almost instant, and tiredness is a signal your body needs something, not a weakness to override.

  • Ask 'if this is a marathon, what do I need along the way?'
  • The basics: sleep, good food, moving your body, social contact
  • These are the first things we let slide when struggling
  • Sleep's benefit shows up the very next day
  • Tiredness is information, not a pathology to push through

“if this is a marathon what do I need to put in along the way... social contact good food moving your body and sleeping”

Dr Julie Smith · 1:44:30
#burnout#sustainability#sleep#study
Takeaway1:50:30

Supporting someone struggling: connection beats fixing

The well-meaning trap is saying nothing, or avoiding the person, for fear of saying the wrong thing. Julie Smith says people rarely need you to solve an unsolvable problem; they need connection and to know someone has their back. You can simply be present, even talking about something else, or honestly say 'I don't know how to help, steer me and I won't take it personally.'

  • Fear of saying the wrong thing makes us withdraw, which hurts
  • You don't need to solve the problem; you need to connect
  • A weekly dog walk with light conversation can be hugely valuable
  • Naming your own uncertainty removes the fear from the situation
  • You don't have to be the therapist, just be by their side

“mostly what people don't need is someone to come along and solve an unsolvable problem they need some human connection and someone to be there”

Dr Julie Smith · 1:51:00
#support#relationships#grief#connection