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Success Beyond Money25 July 2024

Success Beyond Money: Joe Hudson

5Frameworks
15Insights

Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 2

Myth Buster10:00

Why 'how to make $10K a month' content keeps people poor

Ali admits his channel A/B tests titles and that money-numbered titles reliably win — a video about building a business you enjoy tanked until they retitled it. Hudson's response is that focusing on the money goal is exactly why a lot of people stay poor. His reading of that audience: 'I want to want to be rich.' They are identified with the grasping, not the having — one day I'll make it, one day I'll get my dad's love, one day I'll feel safe. He also notes that the person selling you a specific money method is usually making their money from you, not from the method.

so a lot of people are focused on the goal of making money which is why a lot of people are poor

Joe Hudson · 10:30

but it's you're actually identified in the in the grasping of it you're not identified in the having of it

Joe Hudson · 11:00
Myth Buster20:00

Look out any window: money isn't scarce, thinking is

Hudson's argument against money scarcity. Look out any window and count the ways people made money: the window itself, the argon gas inside it, the glass company, the fuel that made the glass, the electricity, the road sign, the person who installed it, the steel, the paint. Thousands of income streams in a single view, most of them shared among multiple companies. He also dismantles the CV path — high-end real estate agents and economists both report that only 10-15% of their clientele are salaried professionals and the rest are entrepreneurs — and notes the safety logic looks worse, not better, as AI develops.

so the idea that money is scarce is ridiculous it is all over the place it is it is just the thinking that is constricted

Joe Hudson · 22:00

yeah but there is a way to make money doing anything in the world

Joe Hudson · 22:30

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take1:29:30

Shoulds don't change anything — wants do

Hudson's test: everyone listening has a habit they have been telling themselves they should change for three, five or ten years, and the fact that they are still telling themselves that is the proof it doesn't work. Shoulding yourself is resistance and shame, so it stagnates and persists. He suggests running the reverse audit — look at everything about you that did change in the last five years and count how many needed a should. Pushed on genuinely justified shoulds, like being a better partner, he concedes they may all be genuine and insists they are still ineffective: 'I want to be a better partner' does the work that 'I should' cannot.

it's just not an effective mechanism for transformation

Joe Hudson · 1:30:00

so if I'm saying I should be a better partner to my spouse it's not going to to make me better

Joe Hudson · 1:31:00
Hot Take1:31:30

You cannot motivate a teenager you're telling is broken

A parent at a book signing asked Ali how to motivate teenagers who play video games instead of studying — while describing how she keeps putting his videos in front of them and telling them they should watch. Hudson's answer starts with a question back at the parent: what are you trying not to feel? Telling a kid they should be different tells them they are not good, that they are broken enough to need managing — and nobody wants to listen to someone who thinks they are broken. He says he loves the teenage years, that his own kids are naturally motivated because they listen to themselves, and that shame is the lock holding the chains of bad habits in place.

I mean when you're telling their kid that they you should be different what you're basically telling them is they're not good that they're broken…

Joe Hudson · 1:32:30

addiction comes with Shame Shame is the the lock that holds the chains of bad habits in place

Joe Hudson · 1:35:00

Explainer· 5

Explainer04:00

Walmart's coke machine lights: why 'do good or make money' is a false fork

Hudson's historical analogy for the success-versus-fulfilment trade-off. In the 1970s you were a businessman or an environmentalist, never both. Walmart broke it in the 1990s — CEO Lee Scott described the savings as sweeping thousand-dollar bills off the floor, and the example Hudson loves came from a kid in a break room who suggested removing the lights from the coke machines, worth about 1.5 million dollars a year at the time. He argues society is mid-transition on the same fork today: you can be successful and unfulfilled, or you can be both, and doing both turns out to make you more successful.

why don't you take the lights out of the coke machines in the break rooms of Walmart savings to Walmart was $1.5 million a year…

Joe Hudson · 04:30

or you can do both and if you're going to do both what you find out is it actually makes you more successful it's like…

Joe Hudson · 05:00
Explainer12:30

The search for purpose chases purpose away

On the panic that hits people between roughly 27 and 30. Hudson argues that searching for purpose presupposes you weren't born with it, and the searching itself pushes it away — the same dynamic as a jealous lover who wants you so hard they repel you. His alternative is to look at what you naturally read and what naturally excites you, and to notice that purpose is as much how you do things as what you do. His own is anything that helps people know themselves and become more authentic, which he says he could do working at the post office. To the 25-year-old who hates their job and only watches Netflix, his reply is that they are recreating the teenage arrangement with their parents.

the search for purpose assumes that you weren't born with it

Joe Hudson · 13:00

purpose is kind of someone thinks purpose is like a career often but purpose is how you do stuff as much as what you do

Joe Hudson · 13:30
Explainer43:30

Joy is the matriarch: she won't enter a house where her children aren't welcome

Hudson's metaphor for why suppressing one emotion costs you the good ones. Joy is the matriarch of a family of emotions and will not come into a house unless her children are welcome — so if you are repressing anger, there is no room for joy. He treats joy and love as the natural state that shows up whenever nothing is being contained, and says he sees it constantly at their retreats: people move their emotions and become visibly more joyful, exactly as he was after crying for four days. He is careful that 'moving' means expressing it out of the musculature, not aiming it at another person.

yeah so Joy is the matriarch of a family of emotions and she won't come into a house unless your children are welcome basically

Joe Hudson · 44:00

is that if you are trying to repress anger you are not make there's no room for Joy

Joe Hudson · 44:30
Explainer47:00

Head, heart, gut: Hudson's three-level approach to depression

Pushed on chemical imbalance, Hudson concedes SSRIs and clinical depression exist and says he is talking about dysthymic, low-level depression, and that he is not diagnosing anyone. His model of consciousness has three levels — head (intellect, prefrontal cortex), heart (emotion, mammalian brain), gut (nervous system, reptilian brain) — and he claims hitting all three produces far more transformation. For depression: the head is the negative self-talk, which he calls self-abuse and which is how the DSM defines dysthymia; the heart is releasing anger and sometimes sadness; the gut is feeling safe, since chronic anxiety wears out the adrenal glands and depression follows. Not 100% effective, but effective a lot of the time.

so the head is intellect the heart is the emotional and the gut is the nervous system

Joe Hudson · 48:00

and then the gut part of it is about feeling safe it's because anxiety and depression go hand in hand

Joe Hudson · 49:00
Explainer1:10:30

Enlightenment as an expanding sense of self and time

Hudson takes a Western developmental view. A small child cannot separate itself from the world — ask what it wants for Christmas and it answers for everyone. Then the sense of self widens: family, tribe, nation, humanity, ecosystem, which is why people who identify with the environment protect it. At some point it becomes universal again and, oddly, feels like a memory: I am everything and everything is me. Time follows the same arc, from a child who only cares about a birthday three days away, to Americans who can see three and a half years out yet sign mortgages that blow up in four, to Native American seven-generation thinking, until infinity stops being length and becomes the depth of a moment.

okay at some point at some point the sense of self becomes Universal again and it actually feels like a memory

Joe Hudson · 1:12:00

there's this point where it kind of implodes on itself and infinity doesn't become a length of time it becomes like the depth of a…

Joe Hudson · 1:13:30

Story· 4

Story02:00

The billionaire who wakes up at 40 miserable

Hudson describes the typical arc of the executives he coaches: you can be absolutely miserable and have a successful career, but around forty it tends to fall apart at once — a billion dollars, a very public divorce, half the fortune gone, and a board looking for a replacement CEO. His diagnosis is that they got everything they wanted and none of what they needed. As a coach, his method is to trace a business problem back to its counterpart in the person's personal life and childhood; untie that pattern and the business frees up along with the person.

so you can be absolutely miserable and have a successful uh career for sure

Joe Hudson · 02:30

they have gotten this success and then they realize they got everything they wanted but they didn't actually get what they needed

Joe Hudson · 03:00
Story15:30

Money as a projection of your relationship with your father

Early in his venture capital career, Hudson read about a peer who had become a billionaire off a single investment his firm had declined, and felt a kick in his stomach. Instead of moving past it he felt into it and let his body tell him when he had first felt that sensation — trying and failing to obtain his father's love. With his father gone, he had transplanted the relationship onto money. He generalises: for investment bankers it's often 'if I perform I get love, so if I perform I get money'; for others it's 'nothing I do gets it', or 'I'm oppressed by it'. Money, in his view, is mostly a projection of an unmet childhood need.

and I was like oh my relationship with my with money is a lot like my relationship with dad

Joe Hudson · 16:00

so a lot of times money is just the projection that we put on to it it's not actually what we think it is

Joe Hudson · 16:30
Story37:30

Faking tears at 10,000 feet until the crying came

Hudson's parents read his crying as proof they were bad parents, so they mocked him when he cried and kept the photographs in an album. At twenty-four he found it, understood why he hadn't cried in years, and set out to learn. Months of trying produced nothing, so he decided to fake it — hiking to around ten thousand feet outside Los Angeles and going off trail so nobody would hear him, because it felt so shameful, faking tears once or twice a week. Eventually real crying arrived and lasted four days. He says he could have stopped and chose not to, and that his life was dramatically better afterwards.

so I lived in Los Angeles I went up to like 10,000 feet and I took a trail and then I went off Trail so…

Joe Hudson · 38:00

and holy crap was my life so much better after crying for four days

Joe Hudson · 38:30
Story1:16:30

Ten years of chasing, and the answer that arrived at a urinal

At about 25, working in investment banking, Hudson got a taste of unity consciousness at a meditation retreat and dedicated the next decade to it — meditation, the Hoffman process, somatic healing, breath work, sitting seven hours a day, earning around $12,000 a year and worrying constantly about money. He calls the effort unlucky, because chasing pushes it away. The question that kept arising was: what am I essentially, that has always been and can never be taken away? The answer came while taking a pee at a retreat and immediately evaporated — followed by the thought he considers his real luck: this never ends. Which is why he avoids the word enlightenment; it connotes finished.

I put a lot of effort into getting it so and that really slows down the process the more effort putting an effort really slows…

Joe Hudson · 1:19:00

yep and then the next thought was this never ends which is where I was very lucky

Joe Hudson · 1:19:30

Takeaway· 2

Takeaway1:07:30

We only get triggered by what we secretly believe about ourselves

Ali tests it: told his typing speed is slow, he feels nothing, because he knows it isn't. Told he can't feel his emotions, he flinches — because part of him agrees. Hudson's rule is that we only get triggered at the things we actually think are true about ourselves, which makes internet trolls unusually good ego-destroying equipment. His own example: a friend on a hike called him a dick, he denied it, and the friend told him to take pride in it instead. He relaxed into it, agreed he could see the ways he was one — and the pushy behaviour simply stopped, because he was no longer defending it.

we only get triggered at the stuff that we actually think is true about ourselves

Joe Hudson · 1:08:30

the thing that we resist persists you've heard this before this is the resistance the defense is the resistance

Joe Hudson · 1:09:30
Takeaway1:42:30

The factors separating successful-and-fulfilled from successful-and-miserable

Asked to close the loop, Hudson says there are seven key factors taught in their long course and gives three. Wants are more effective than shoulds — people who move from their wants, and are vulnerable enough to share and feel them, are far more fulfilled. Connection over perfection: a product built by connecting with customers beats one built to be perfect, and the book you feel connected to beats the book you tried to perfect. Love over defence: staying open-hearted even while setting boundaries, saying no, or competing hard in business. Each of the seven has a dedicated episode on his own podcast, made free alongside the paid courses.

which is um wants are more effective than shoulds so if they're moving from their wants and they're willing to be vulnerable enough to share…

Joe Hudson · 1:43:30

um if they focus on connection over Perfection is another one

Joe Hudson · 1:44:00