DDeep Dive with Ali Abdaal
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22 February 2024

The Difference Between Healthy and Toxic Relationships

5Frameworks
11Insights

Frameworks in this episode

Communication5 steps

Processing a Regrettable Incident

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Strategy7 steps

Screening for a Life Partner, Not a Prom Date

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Strategy5 steps

The Four Stages of Importance

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Self-Mastery7 steps

The Post-Date 8

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Communication7 steps

The Relationship Audit

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Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster20:00

Throw out your dating checklist — it measures the wrong things

Ali asks whether evaluating dates against a hiring-style scorecard makes sense. Logan Ury says checklists generally aren't helpful because of what people put on them — height, income, perceived success, shared hobbies — which the research shows doesn't predict long-term relationship outcomes. Her advice is to throw out the checklist, be willing to date someone who isn't your type, and accept that the person who makes you happiest long term may not be who you expected.

“In general, I think that having a checklist is not helpful because often what's on that checklist is the wrong stuff. It's height, income, perceived…”

Dr. Logan Ury · 20:00

“So, as a concept, I would say throw out your checklist. Be willing to date someone who's not your type.”

Dr. Logan Ury · 20:30

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take24:30

Skip the spark, go after the slow burn

Ury's counterintuitive claim from her book: the spark — instant chemistry, feeling like you've known someone for a million years — burns out fast, and plenty of sparky people are charismatic but also narcissistic, focused on getting you to fall for them rather than asking whether they like you. The alternative is the slow burn: someone you like more and more over time, whose appreciation grows. She notes friends in relationships she admires had terrible first dates and only gave the person a chance because someone told them to.

“a lot of sparky people are charismatic, but also narcissistic. They're focused on getting you to fall for them, but they're not actually asking themselves…”

Dr. Logan Ury · 25:00

“And so you will find some great people if you make the second date the default.”

Dr. Logan Ury · 25:30
Hot Take42:30

'The ideal relationship is 10% of your time together' — the Hinge prompt that split people

Ali describes a Hinge prompt he wrote — the ideal relationship is when you spend 10% of your time each day together and the rest doing your own thing — and the polarised reactions, from 'sounds reasonable, maybe a bit excessive' to accusations of being a sociopath. His logic: 10% of 24 hours is 2.4 hours of quality time a day, which is a lot. Francesca Specter agrees once the number is unpacked, and says the crux is quality time rather than the percentage, with a grey area of 'alone togetherness' the figure doesn't capture.

“the ideal relationship is when dot dot dot and I I wrote something like when we spend 10% of our time each day together and…”

Ali Abdaal · 43:00

“But I I think the the crux is quality time, right?”

Francesca Specter · 44:00

Explainer· 2

Explainer32:00

Unsaid things simmer into resentment — and the medium matters less than you think

Hannah Witton's answer to what's high-ROI for couples: accept you won't be perfect at communication, and fumbling through bad communication beats not communicating at all. She's learned the hard way that things left unsaid simmer into resentment and anger and eventually come out uncontrolled. She also rejects the hierarchy that says face-to-face is always best — if saying it face to face is too hard, write it down, text, or call, as long as the message gets across. The caveat: if there's no face-to-face interaction at all in the relationship, work on that, because there's a lot you gather from it.

“And I and I've learned the hard way that if you don't bring these things up, they will just simmer and they will become resentment…”

Hannah Witton · 32:30

“I'm like if you if you're really struggling to say that thing face to face then maybe write it down or text them or like…”

Hannah Witton · 33:00
Explainer44:00

Together-together time vs together-alone time

Specter's romantic fantasy is reading a book at the opposite end of the sofa from someone reading their own — what she calls alone togetherness, drawing on Donald Winnicott's idea of being comfortable in the presence of another without needing to interact. Ali and his girlfriend name the same distinction: together-alone is working or reading side by side; together-together is deliberately spending quality time. He prefers the balance skewed toward together-alone so that the together-together time is intentional and present. On holiday they schedule co-working blocks until 3pm, then go out.

“the idea of alone togetherness that comfort that you know coming back to that Donald Wikott child psychologist thing of like being comfortable in the…”

Francesca Specter · 44:00

“One thing that my my girlfriend and I kind of distinguish between is together together time and together alone time.”

Ali Abdaal · 46:30

Story· 1

Story17:00

Ali's Top Golf date and the accidental growth-mindset test

Ali describes a second date at Top Golf with the woman he's now in a relationship with. Neither of them had ever played golf; he messaged her to try it anyway and she was totally up for it. What stood out was her willingness to try something new and be fine with looking like a bit of an idiot. Reading Ury's book afterwards, he realised he had accidentally selected for growth mindset. Ury's reaction: he was brave to suggest something he wasn't good at, and it signalled he was fun, spontaneous and willing to be bad at things.

“she was totally cool with actually trying out this new thing, being okay with looking like a bit of an idiot”

Ali Abdaal · 17:30

“First of all, you were brave in suggesting something that you weren't good at.”

Dr. Logan Ury · 18:00

Q&A· 1

Q&A29:30

Should you talk it out straight after a fight?

Ali asks what to do while emotions are still running high — park it and carry on with the day, take time apart, or hash it out. John Gottman's answer is unambiguous: don't do it. Talking too soon makes it easy to slide right back into the fight. He also warns against the instinct to apologise almost immediately, because until you've heard your partner's experience of the fight you don't know how your behaviour impacted them, and so you don't really know what you're apologising for. Usually both people are responsible in some way — not always, but often.

“I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it because it's so easy to slide into the old argument again. You'll slide right back into the…”

Dr. John Gottman · 30:30

“So, you don't really know what you're apologizing for until you've heard the story of your partner's experience”

Dr. John Gottman · 31:00

Tool· 1

Tool33:30

Walk side by side or sit back to back for the hard conversations

Witton's practical trick for difficult conversations: remove eye contact. Going for a walk together lets you have surprisingly deep conversations because you're both looking ahead rather than at each other, and anything that gives you something else to focus on works the same way. Sitting back to back is another option — you keep a contact point and the closeness and physicality of their presence, but you're effectively talking at a wall, which for some people makes the harder things much easier to say.

“if you're going for a walk together, you can always I always find like you can have like quite deep conversations when you're going for…”

Hannah Witton · 33:30

“Sometimes uh if you're like sitting together but like back to back and talking is really nice because you have that contact point between you”

Hannah Witton · 33:30

Takeaway· 3

Takeaway23:30

Make the second date the default

Ury applies the behavioural science of defaults to dating: whatever the default is, people stick with it — fries or salad at a burger place. She argues we put far too much pressure on the first date, when some of the best people she knows are awkward, introverted and bad at small talk while making great long-term partners. Treat the first date as a warm-up round — do I like your voice, am I attracted, do we have something to talk about — and assume a second date unless something crazy, terrible or unsafe happened.

“The next thing is that in dating, I think we put too much pressure on the first date. Some of the best people I know…”

Dr. Logan Ury · 24:00

“And that way, if you go in assuming you'll go on the second date, you're giving people more of a shot and it's easier to…”

Dr. Logan Ury · 24:30
Takeaway41:00

Being right doesn't excuse you from your partner's feelings

Witton notes that sometimes a partner's directly hurtful action is the cause, but other times her partner does something perfectly reasonable and she's still upset — because how we react carries baggage as well as the behaviour we're on the receiving end of. The move isn't to adjudicate reasonableness. A partner can say the thing was reasonable, see that it's upsetting you, and meet you where you are or somewhere in the middle for the time being. It isn't about being right or wrong: you're their teammate, so 'my actions were reasonable, I take zero responsibility for how you feel' doesn't hold.

“Because it's not about being like right or wrong in that situation. Like, well, it was perfectly reasonable my actions, so I take zero responsibility…”

Hannah Witton · 42:00

“That's why I like that question about like what's making you feel stressed right now and how can I help because that stress um wasn't…”

Hannah Witton · 42:30
Takeaway44:30

Constant WhatsApp check-ins are insecurity, not connection

Specter pushes back on the expectation that couples should check in every hour or two on WhatsApp, calling it her personal hell and often driven by insecurity. Her example is her closest friendship: they'll occasionally message late at night and fall into a great energetic exchange, but they don't send 'how was your day' texts, because their bond and their quality time together are so much better than a pinging app sitting between Hinge and Instagram notifications. Reducing the relationship to that channel devalues it.

“There's this sense that you should be checking in every hour or so hour or two on WhatsApp. It's my personal hell.”

Francesca Specter · 44:30

“we do not message each other asking how was your day because we know that our bond is so great that our energy together, our…”

Francesca Specter · 45:00